Ray Comfort and the folks at Living Waters seem fixated on the idea that atheists believe, "nothing created everything." Every few videos they post, every few blogs they write, and every few billboards they put up has the slogan, "nothing created everything, a scientific impossibility." As if Living Waters is relevant in deciding what is scientific or what isn't.
First of all, atheism has nothing to do with the creation of the Universe. It's only a theological position regarding the non-existence of God. It's a bit like accusing Wiccans of believing the world rests on the back of a turtle. The two have little relevance to each other.
Secondly, absolute nothingness doesn't exist. This is plainly obvious by our existence. No one knows if nothingness is even possible for even where we think there is nothing, the fabric of space-time weaves together reality in tight, multi-dimensional knots.
If absolute nothingness doesn't exist, why should one assume the universe came from nothing? Why would you even assume nothing is a default position before existence? This line of thinking makes no sense.
"An atheist believes nothing created everything," is simply a bad strawman argument, easily ignored. Everyone should be suspect when one side says, "My opponent believes..." because, most likely, they don't believe that at all.
So let Living Waters be fixated on their notion that atheists believe nothing created everything. Their words betray their dishonest arguments and only serves to make them look only more foolish.
Tuesday, October 27, 2009
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On the subject of "something from nothing", this excellent talk by Lawrence Krauss is long, but definitely worth it. It will blow your mind.
ReplyDeleteThanks, James.
ReplyDeleteIf absolute nothingness doesn't exist, why should one assume the universe came from nothing? Why would you even assume nothing is a default position before existence? This line of thinking makes no sense.
ReplyDelete- - - - - - -
I agree. Since God was always in existence, that should take care of your "existence of absolute nothingness" problem.
Well if it didn't come from nothing, what did it come from?
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, atheism has nothing to do with the creation of the Universe.
ReplyDeleteNot exactly true.
Usually the idea of God is associated with being the Creator...therefore it is logically assumed that a-theism is the opposite. There is relation to the creation of the universe.
Secondly, absolute nothingness doesn't exist
How do you know that?
This is plainly obvious by our existence
There is always something new to learn outside of our existence these days.
Why would you even assume nothing is a default position before existence?
Do you believe in cause and effect?
Where, Why and How did the first CAUSE come from?
Is it complex and self-fulfilling or so simple it is practically nothing?
The difference I see between an atheist and a theist is:
A theist believes the universe gets more complex until it is self fulfilling (God).
An atheist believes it gets less complex...down to nothing or in your case near nothing...I assume.
Unless they believe in a complex first cause as long it is not God?
One way is guided will. The other is an unguided accident.
All we know is that something started this universe and some believe it was mindless and others think it is mindful.
Which one seems more likely?
I say Design.
Copy-paste doesn't seem to work for me right now, so excuse the lack of direct quotes. I might have to change templates.
ReplyDeleteDa Bomb,
1) If atheism says how the universe was created, I'd love to hear it. Simply saying "it wasn't your God" is about as descriptive as saying, "The sky isn't grass."
2) How do I know absolute nothingness doesn't exist? If something exists, then absolute nothingness cannot exist. Some things exist, ergo, absolute nothingness exists.
3) Do I believe in cause and effect. Only when time and space exist can you have caause and effect. Asking what caused the Big Big is like asking what's north of the north pole? When time or t = 0, there cannot be an event preceding it.
Similarly, effects without causes happen all the time on the quantum level. Radioactive decay, for example, occures without a preceding event initiating it.
4) An atheist believes the universe gets less complex over time? So, umm... does evolution say that we become simpler creatures over time or more complex? You can't have it both ways. This has nothing to do with the "cause" of the universe.
The universe was increadibly simple when it first started. Very few particles existed and the entire Universe was smaller than an atom. Over time, the Universe becomes more complex as heavier elements are made, black holes are formed, life begins, etc...
In fact, the simplicity of the early universe suggests a simplistic cause, not an intelligent (complex) one.
5) Nothing in the universe is an "accident," particularly not evolution.
6) What's more likely, a mindless or mind-full first cause? Let's think...
An intelligence in inherently complex. A mind-less entity is less complex.
Which is more parsimonious?
err... ergo absolute nothingness doesn't exist. >_<
ReplyDeleteAn atheist believes the universe gets less complex over time? So, umm... does evolution say that we become simpler creatures over time or more complex? You can't have it both ways. This has nothing to do with the "cause" of the universe
ReplyDeleteI actually said:
"The difference I see between an atheist and a theist is:
A theist believes the universe gets more complex until it is self fulfilling (God).
An atheist believes it gets less complex...down to nothing or in your case near nothing...I assume."
Where did I mention "over time?"
I talked about trailing back not forward.
You can break down a person into smaller less complex bits and the universe also. For an atheist it gets simpler until practically nothing but for a theist it gets more complex at the origin...God.
"it wasn't your God"
Atheism does not say this, it says "It wasn't a God", therefore it is related to creation in a negative way.
Although it is in relation to it also in a positive way, it is claiming that the origin of creation is not a God so therefore atheism believes in the un-intelligible creation/formation of the universe. A positive belief about the origin of the universe.
Similarly, effects without causes happen all the time on the quantum level. Radioactive decay, for example, occures without a preceding event initiating it.
I don't understand quantum physics (do you?) but to say that something does NOT have a cause is ridiculous.
How can you possibly have B come into existence without A preceding it?
Unless it is God :)
He is the Causeless causer.
cheers
DP
Ignoring your special pleading, if God doesn't need a cause, why does the universe? You do realize there was no time "before" or preceding the universe, yes?
ReplyDeleteAnd why would an infinitely complex, intelligent agent exist as opposed to nothing? It makes no sense at all.
You're basically saying that all of existence (since God is eternal and infinite in nature) is a magical person, poofed without a cause into eternal existence, without any mechanism for forming said intelligence.
Do you honest not see the ridiculousness of your claims?
Err...honestly... I hate typos.
ReplyDelete"it is claiming that the origin of creation is not a God so therefore atheism believes in the un-intelligible creation/formation of the universe. A positive belief about the origin of the universe."
ReplyDeleteIgnoring the problem of infinite regress, why exactly can't a highly evolved, technologically advanced creature create the Universe? Just because we don't know how to make a new universe doesn't mean it can't be done.
So enough with your "atheism believes in an unintelligent creation." Atheism is just a lack of a belief in gods. Maybe the Universe was created by some kind of god or god-like creature, but there's no evidence of this nor any evidence for the existence of any god whatsoever. That's why atheism exists. Nothing about atheism says how the universe started.
why exactly can't a highly evolved, technologically advanced creature create the Universe?
ReplyDeleteThat creature must have evolved from elsewhere...because it evolved. Another universe maybe? Must have been another ordererly law abiding universe. Where did that order come from?
And why would an infinitely complex, intelligent agent exist as opposed to nothing? It makes no sense at all.
I can give you answers from the Bible but of course you won't be interested in that. So I ask you a question:
"And why would an infinitely complex, mindless mass exist as opposed to nothing? It makes no sense at all."
Who are you and I to decide what makes sense, follow the evidence.
You're basically saying that all of existence (since God is eternal and infinite in nature) is a magical person, poofed without a cause into eternal existence, without any mechanism for forming said intelligence.
You're basically saying that all of existence (since the universe is eternal and infinite in nature...though it had a beginning) is a meaningless mass of energy, poofed without a cause into eternal existence, carrying a law abiding nature to mindlessly create us.
That creature must have evolved from elsewhere...because it evolved. Another universe maybe? Must have been another ordererly law abiding universe. Where did that order come from?
ReplyDeleteI specifically said, "Ignoring the problem of infinite regress" for a reason. However, if an extremely large amount of universes or universe-like structures came into being, perhaps one would just happen to form an intelligent being on its own. It will happen if you create enough time and enough universes.
"And why would an infinitely complex, mindless mass exist as opposed to nothing? It makes no sense at all."
The universe isn't "infinitely complex." But to answer your question, it's because there's no such thing as absolute nothingness. Existence, not nothingness, is the default state.
We have yet to observe "nothing," because even in the emptiest parts of space, you still have the oceans of space and time.
Show me that nothingness is even possible.
You're basically saying that all of existence (since the universe is eternal and infinite in nature..
The universe is finite and not eternal. It has a beginning, and it will have an end.
.though it had a beginning) is a meaningless mass of energy
The universe isn't a "meaningless mass of energy." It's my home; it's where I keep all my stuff.
poofed without a cause into eternal existence
The universe isn't eternal. Also, it's extremely plausible to say that the Universe is causeless given that there is no time "outside" of our universe.
carrying a law abiding nature to mindlessly create us.
First, let's get some terminology straight. Nature behaves in predictable patterns not "laws" as if they are somehow spoken or written down down somewhere. It's impossible for a universe to be "law abiding." And yes, we were formed without any intelligent intervention.
If "god of the gaps" and argumentum ad ignorantiams is all you got, I'm afraid you will never make a very persuasive argument.
"The universe isn't a "meaningless mass of energy." It's my home; it's where I keep all my stuff."
ReplyDelete:-) Awesome!